GM LLD Rule Discussion

It's tough having everyone agree on something, so let's open this up to the community to discuss!
Here's what I've compiled so far for a GM LLD ruleset. This is not set in stone, and we can make changes accordingly.
For the record, I meant to post it here first time hehe. Sorry for double thread!



General:
-Characters must be level 30
-No third party programs or modifications of any kind
-No use of Shrines/Wells/Health/Rejuv/Thawing/Antidote potions
-No use of Mercenaries
-Players must say "Go" before using offensive skills
-L8zing, kiting and hiding to replenish will not be tolerated
-Gear MUST be shown upon request

Item Limits:
-No use of ANY +Max Resist% gear (EXCEPTION: 10% FIRE & 5% POISON)
-No use of items that grant Slow Target
-Chance to Cast Slow Missiles on Peace runeword OK
-Max replenish life +40
-No prebuff from stash. Cube inside inventory OK.
-No use of skill charge items (EXCEPTION: Teleport Staff)

Amazon Only:
-No Farcast (Including legit)
-No Slow Missiles

Barbarian Only:
-No Namelock Whirlwind
-No use of Insight

Druid Only:
-No recasting Cyclone Armor

Necromancer Only:
-Max 2 Bone Walls per screen
-No recasting Bone Armor
-No Clay Golem
-No Bone Prison
-No Decrepify

Paladin Only:
-No Holy Freeze
-No Holy Bolt
-No Prayer
-No Meditation
-No Cleansing

Sorceress Only:
-No use of Bugged Manas
-No use of Insight with Energy Shield
-Max +15 replenish life with Energy Shield
-No Recasting ES

I like these rules, looks fair :)

as we stated. Until we get more different items. life cap will be at 40 until those diff items are added.

Thumbs up. Very good stuff for a start. I assume we will modify it as/if we get new items and more tournaments happen? :D

I still think Bone Wall should be completely banned since the hp scales up to 4.3k in Hell difficulty (vs. couple hundreds in normal difficulty). Necros are already very hard to kill when you play as a physical character (such as charger). But I guess for now no extensive testing as been done since we have so little items/builds right now.

I don't think wall should be completely banned, but I halved it from 4 to 2, I checked ingame and yes 4k+ wall is pretty tanky.
Adjustments can be made after tournaments, to find what works I guess

Poison Jav skills have been banned!
Tournament only ATM. Further testing required in pubs.

Considerations:
Neutralizing ES sorcs
1 or 2 builds? use PLR

would be nice if it was bm to lld
or divide the realm again w/e

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Originally Posted by Research

would be nice if it was bm to lld
or divide the realm again w/e

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pvm realm + pk realm = already divided

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Originally Posted by FromTheRez

pvm realm + pk realm = already divided

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And yet both realms are actually going pretty strong :) I think they compliment each other as sister servers quite well!

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Originally Posted by Game

sister servers

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Why not brother realms? That's sexism Vav.

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Originally Posted by Game

And yet both realms are actually going pretty strong :) I think they compliment each other as sister servers quite well!

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I think its good to have both up. One brings in more then enough to pay for both servers which is overall good for both! There are other issues, nothing to big, and were dealing with them as we go. So overall everything is working good so far. :)

Did Vav assume the realms genders?

I was born annihilus, but decided I felt more like a d2pk. I therefor went through serious psychological help and support to get my servers changed.

Upon testing, in order to make some balance, we are currently allowing:

10% max FIRE resist
5% max POISON resist

Poison Javelin skills have been unbanned

frw limits & excessive wsg should be discussed. heavily.

we play for fun, not pride
that is pride play

Yeah, there's nothing more boring and cheap than having a bowazon with insane frw spamming unlimited arrows from 2 screens away, and when you catch up with her, she simply outruns your projectiles with plenty of time to keep stopping and returning fire.

I think we see why they had a FWR cap on east/west. So we can do some testing on FWR cap. And set a rule for it.

A FRW cap would heavily punish melee characters like Fury Druids/WW barbs, which also use frw sc's to catch running characters. It's also a bad idea to make sorcs stronger by punishing all non-teleporting/charging characters.

As for WSG, I suggest we add a rule that prevents WSG when you're not under a namelock. For instance, it would be fine to use against a teleporting character that tries to stomp you, or a trapsin spamming mind blast and traps, but using it just to synch harder in blood moor while not under any heat would be illegal.

As for my personal opinion, I think Bowzons are overpowered, but I think adding a frw/wsg rule is moot. There's already more things that makes you intentionally synch harder (like using vigor when you charge hdin).

The GM rule list should be kept short and simple, restricting only what's blatantly OP/breaks the game. WSG/high frw isn't what makes zons overpowered. That's just dealing with surface problems. I'm pretty sure a bowzon with just 70 frw from circ+sanders would be just as dominating as a 150 frw bowzon.

The problem lies where she can: 1- Shoot a hooming projectile that 2- cannot be outrun and that 3- deals high amounts of dmg. Regardless of the matchup, a bowazon is always the character that has to be chased, because her range is so high and GA impossible to dodge. That's where we need to discuss for a nerf, not a frw cap or wsg.

Here's a suggestion from my part: limit the amount of hard skill points in Guided Arrow and Critical Strike to maximum 1. It would reduce their dmg output, giving the attackers more chance to catch her off/capitalize on mistakes. We can start off with that and see where it goes?

I disagree. #1: Zons can literally run circles around characters firing projectiles at them with plenty of time to return fire, and #2: spam from off screen while making sure nobody can even get on their screen. If somebody teles on their screen, see #1. And using the tele stick to get on their screen? Great. You just lost all your block and got hit by half a dozen GA. We need either a frw cap or enigma of peace so we can block while teleporting. And before anyone chimes in with some garbage about eop "breaking LLD," EVERYONE can use it, so it doesn't give any unfair advantages. It does allow for a ton of new builds, just like enigma does in HLD.
Also, most GA dmg doesn't come from hard points. It comes from gear points and charms. I propose a compromise: FRW caps for zons can be slightly higher than other builds so she still has a bit of a mobility advantage. Need more moboility? Use the tele stick. Or EoP.

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Originally Posted by Brimstonejack

#1: Zons can literally run circles around characters firing projectiles at them with plenty of time to return fire

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Can be said for any character in the game. I could be a trapsin/necro/sorcs/hdins/throw barb and do the exact samething I did to you last tournament. Your strategy involving standing still, spamming bone spirits hoping they will land is a bad one while peope run around you and firing back, isn't a good one.

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Originally Posted by Brimstonejack

#2: spam from off screen while making sure nobody can even get on their screen. If somebody teles on their screen, see #1. And using the tele stick to get on their screen? Great. You just lost all your block and got hit by half a dozen GA.

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Yeah that's the problem, GA is too strong as is. And telestaff doesn't help with that like you said.

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Originally Posted by Brimstonejack

We need either a frw cap or enigma of peace so we can block while teleporting. And before anyone chimes in with some garbage about eop "breaking LLD," EVERYONE can use it, so it doesn't give any unfair advantages. It does allow for a ton of new builds, just like enigma does in HLD.

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By "breaking LLD", we don't mean that it's gonna be overpowered. As you said, everyone would be able to use it. If everyone is overpowered, nothing is overpowered.

What we mean is that the point of LLD is to get away from HLD, away from all the items /strategies that are staple in HLD. Why would I want LLD to be more like HLD? I'd jsut play HLD then. People who like LLD are also people who liked dueling before 1.10 (the patch introducing nigma). They like the feeling where you have to duel by running, not teleporting. That's what we mean by breaking LLD. I guess a clearer way to say this would be that adding EoP would remove what makes LLD special/unique/fun. All the hybrid runewords are super BM across all regions on bnet and are considered lame by every LLD'ers I know. You're like the only one that wants them introduced.

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Originally Posted by Brimstonejack

Also, most GA dmg doesn't come from hard points. It comes from gear points and charms. I propose a compromise: FRW caps for zons can be slightly higher than other builds so she still has a bit of a mobility advantage. Need more moboility? Use the tele stick. Or EoP.

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It's true that GA gets most their dmg from charms/jewels/dex points, not skill points, but it's at least a start. I'm sure some people have better ideas :)

The main argument I'm trying to make is that even if frw sc's were banned and wsg banned completely, bowzons would still rek everything. Mobility is not what makes them OP.

I disagree. Having so much frw that you can outrun projectiles (not just bone spirits) while returning fire with high speed homing projectiles makes the FRW a big part of the problem. It's a unique combination that give the zons an unfair advantage in almost every scenario in LLD. The FRW is the lynchpin of the unfair advantage. I get it. You use a high FRW zon and you don't want to lose that advantage. But I think my idea of having frw caps for all characters with the cap being higher for zons, since their mobility IS so crucial to their play is an idea we should explore. Not so fast that she can outrun projectiles, but faster than anyone except maybe a vigor din or feral rage druid fully charged.

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Originally Posted by Brimstonejack

I get it. You use a high FRW zon and you don't want to lose that advantage.

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To be quite honest I want to see zon nerfed too, it's not a character I enjoy playing. But like I said, capping frw isn't gonna make them not op. But I mean, feel free to cap frw; it's not going to change anything. I guess results are going to be way more convincing than my words.

I'll shut down this. WSGing will not be a rule in d2pk. LLD or HLD its just not going to happen. We are open to other suggestions though. Also Enigma of Peace won't be added either. It just ruins LLD. Not to mention its just to overpowered as high level dueling as well.

I agree that you can't really regulate WSG. It's a play style, and a matter of opinion as to what would be considered exploiting it. You can't prove the guy using it doesn't suspect he's namelocked, etc. I disagree with your take on EoP, but that's just my opinion, and it would only be something I'd argue over if we were to take frw caps off the table. I'd be more than happy to help test to find a reasonable FRW cap, and stand by my statement that zons should have a higher FRW than other classes, but not insanely so. It shouldn't be to the point where the zon literally never has to worry about melee characters catching up to them. I would suggest we discuss off-screen spamming, since they have unlimited arrows. Running out of arrows was what kept people from doing this in vanilla, but there's no such concern on d2pk.

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Originally Posted by Brimstonejack

I agree that you can't really regulate WSG. It's a play style, and a matter of opinion as to what would be considered exploiting it. You can't prove the guy using it doesn't suspect he's namelocked, etc. I disagree with your take on EoP, but that's just my opinion, and it would only be something I'd argue over if we were to take frw caps off the table. I'd be more than happy to help test to find a reasonable FRW cap, and stand by my statement that zons should have a higher FRW than other classes, but not insanely so. It shouldn't be to the point where the zon literally never has to worry about melee characters catching up to them. I would suggest we discuss off-screen spamming, since they have unlimited arrows. Running out of arrows was what kept people from doing this in vanilla, but there's no such concern on d2pk.

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There was not one charger or Fire Sorc in that event. Zons cannot, i mean cannot counter charger, and im pretty sure fire sorcs either. So IGA or anything doesnt have to ruled. But frw can be

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Originally Posted by Lockzilla

There was not one charger or Fire Sorc in that event. Zons cannot, i mean cannot counter charger, and im pretty sure fire sorcs either. So IGA or anything doesnt have to ruled. But frw can be

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I can agree with that.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the limit on life rep for es sorcs. i would understand it if we could actually put more hard points into es and tele without killing our dmg output, especially since pretty much everyone has max res, but with the current available equipment from the lld vendor, it's impossible to hit your FHR and fcr breakpoints at the same time and stay under the 15 max life rep. Even a 5 point boost to 20 would solve this. Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brimstonejack

I disagree. #1: Zons can literally run circles around characters firing projectiles at them with plenty of time to return fire, and #2: spam from off screen while making sure nobody can even get on their screen. If somebody teles on their screen, see #1. And using the tele stick to get on their screen? Great. You just lost all your block and got hit by half a dozen GA. We need either a frw cap or enigma of peace so we can block while teleporting. And before anyone chimes in with some garbage about eop "breaking LLD," EVERYONE can use it, so it doesn't give any unfair advantages. It does allow for a ton of new builds, just like enigma does in HLD.
Also, most GA dmg doesn't come from hard points. It comes from gear points and charms. I propose a compromise: FRW caps for zons can be slightly higher than other builds so she still has a bit of a mobility advantage. Need more moboility? Use the tele stick. Or EoP.

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"Huuuhr duuuhrrr we need eop but tele staff is bm"
your logic is fucked

for real, please never bring that garbage armor into LLD here

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Originally Posted by Brimstonejack

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the limit on life rep for es sorcs. i would understand it if we could actually put more hard points into es and tele without killing our dmg output, especially since pretty much everyone has max res, but with the current available equipment from the lld vendor, it's impossible to hit your FHR and fcr breakpoints at the same time and stay under the 15 max life rep. Even a 5 point boost to 20 would solve this. Thoughts?

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also, yes it is.
belt + amulet, boom, 15 rep.

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Originally Posted by FromTheRez

"Huuuhr duuuhrrr we need eop but tele staff is bm"
your logic is fucked

for real, please never bring that garbage armor into LLD here

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Never said tele staff was bm. I sad it was a poor option, based on the idea that in order to use it, you're ditching your ability to block, as well as taking a hit to your resists. In essence, I was clearly stating that it was UNDERpowered, not Op, or BM. I also never stated that we NEED EoP, but rather it would be another option if we don't want to place limits on FRW. But please, continue to make ableist statements while proving that you lack basic reading comprehension skills. Or just keep getting mad that people are looking for ways to fix issues you seem all too happy to let slide, so long as it means you get to keep exploiting overpowered characters. Cheers, ;)

keep exploiting overpowererd chars
suggests eop

hurrrrr

Because EoP only benefits one char? OP item =/= op char. But keep trying. It's cute. ;)