Necromancer

[Addah]

First of all I am happy that Necromancer is still getting attention, and I plan to make it my first character when the ladder resets.

Before I make any kind of suggestion for Summoners I need to know the mechanics of it currently and what you have been considering changing for the future

I will comment with follow-up questions once I know more


My questions:

- Does Crushing Blow for Summons work the same way as indicated in this thread? http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Crushing_blow

- Could Deadly Strike be more effective for either Warriors or Archers?

- Does Fire Golem aura stack if you use multiple?

- Does Iron Golem use Thorn aura?

- Does Clay Golem aura help physical damage of Skeletons or Fire Golem?

- Does Might/Fantacism, etc, damage bonus display correctly on your summons tooltip?

- What other enhancements might be possible on Golems and their Auras?


My concerns:

- For a Summoner, Hell Cows takes a lot longer than any other class/spec, this is because of a slow hit-rate from your minions and they all attack single targets, with the exception of Pierce chance on Archers.

- Summoner is great if your minions all hit the same target, is there a way to help with killing packs of enemies without making Boss fights too easy?

- Is there a way Fire Golem can be specialized to kill packs of enemies quicker?

- Clay Golem might have more DPS than Fire Golem against Bosses because of high Crushing Blow, can you enlighten me on this?

[acyroma]

I'll leave the questions for Game to provide more details on as I'm not 100% certain on all of them.

To address your concerns, all you need is a few points in corpse explosion. It's an insanely powerful skill that works very well with physical pierce. You don't even need to max it, and it can completely demolish even inferno cows incredibly quickly.

Summon necromancers absolutely do NOT need help clearing packs, it's one of their greatest strengths. If you don't want to use corpse explosion, then i just don't understand why not. You don't need to max it for it to be effective.

[Addah]

Oh yes I forgot corpse explosion was meant to be usable in Lich form, that was bugged when I last played so I hadn't thought about it.

[Game]

First of all I am happy that Necromancer is still getting attention, and I plan to make it my first character when the ladder resets.

Before I make any kind of suggestion for Summoners I need to know the mechanics of it currently and what you have been considering changing for the future

I will comment with follow-up questions once I know more


My questions:

- Does Crushing Blow for Summons work the same way as indicated in this thread? http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Crushing_blow

- Could Deadly Strike be more effective for either Warriors or Archers?

- Does Fire Golem aura stack if you use multiple?

- Does Iron Golem use Thorn aura?

- Does Clay Golem aura help physical damage of Skeletons or Fire Golem?

- Does Might/Fantacism, etc, damage bonus display correctly on your summons tooltip?

- What other enhancements might be possible on Golems and their Auras?


My concerns:

- For a Summoner, Hell Cows takes a lot longer than any other class/spec, this is because of a slow hit-rate from your minions and they all attack single targets, with the exception of Pierce chance on Archers.

- Summoner is great if your minions all hit the same target, is there a way to help with killing packs of enemies without making Boss fights too easy?

- Is there a way Fire Golem can be specialized to kill packs of enemies quicker?

- Clay Golem might have more DPS than Fire Golem against Bosses because of high Crushing Blow, can you enlighten me on this?


- Summons likely have the same Crushing Blow numbers as monsters, not player / hirelings, but I cannot say for sure.

- I don't understand the question?

- No, just like players with the same auras, the highest level aura will apply. If they are the same level it will only be affected by 1.

- No, it has the state of thorns aura, but it isn't actually an aura.

- Clay Golem aura with Goka Uln? It lowers magic resist. Neither monster you named uses magic damage, so no it does not help them.

- No, I do not think auras will update summon's tooltips.

- Not sure what you're asking again, I think Golems are fine right now. Their goal is to be pretty tanky and offer a secondary bonus, each Golem does its own thing. I have no real plans to modify Necromancers much in the future as they are in a pretty great spot right now.


Concerns:

- As Acyroma mentioned, summons clear just fine with corpse explosions.

- Summoner is pretty strong already, I have no plans of buffing them. Use Skeletal Burst to help kill large packs of enemies!

- As mentioned earlier, Golem does "okay" damage to weaker enemies with his aura, but there is no plan to make Golems high damage, that is not their role.

- Uhhh... hmm. Clay Golem is probably a little bit stronger against monsters that are not physical immune or have high physical resists, however a lot of bosses are physical immune and Clay Golem does not benefit from -physical pierce while Fire Golem does indeed receive it's summoners piercing. I think Fire Golem will outdamage Clay Golem in the long run.

[Addah]

- Summons likely have the same Crushing Blow numbers as monsters, not player / hirelings, but I cannot say for sure.

- I don't understand the question?

- No, just like players with the same auras, the highest level aura will apply. If they are the same level it will only be affected by 1.

- No, it has the state of thorns aura, but it isn't actually an aura.

- Clay Golem aura with Goka Uln? It lowers magic resist. Neither monster you named uses magic damage, so no it does not help them.

- No, I do not think auras will update summon's tooltips.

- Not sure what you're asking again, I think Golems are fine right now. Their goal is to be pretty tanky and offer a secondary bonus, each Golem does its own thing. I have no real plans to modify Necromancers much in the future as they are in a pretty great spot right now.


Concerns:

- As Acyroma mentioned, summons clear just fine with corpse explosions.

- Summoner is pretty strong already, I have no plans of buffing them. Use Skeletal Burst to help kill large packs of enemies!

- As mentioned earlier, Golem does "okay" damage to weaker enemies with his aura, but there is no plan to make Golems high damage, that is not their role.

- Uhhh... hmm. Clay Golem is probably a little bit stronger against monsters that are not physical immune or have high physical resists, however a lot of bosses are physical immune and Clay Golem does not benefit from -physical pierce while Fire Golem does indeed receive it's summoners piercing. I think Fire Golem will outdamage Clay Golem in the long run.


My thinking here is that Necromancer can be lowered and heightened in different ways to give a better experience, I see it's strong already but my concern now is the mechanics of being a Summoner

I feel these would make improvements as overall mechanics, perhaps through new items or just directly included:

- Clash of tank mechanics: Revives can be unkillable, melee Skeletons are unlimited, Golems are unlimited and unkillable except by Bosses or a pack of inferno cows. I think currently Summoner has a lot of tanks and not enough damage per second done by the summons, furthermore I think auras are a good way to help that.

- Iron Golem with Thorns aura, since many summons have a high %DR it would not be as overpowered as it appears at first glance, this would give the Iron Golem some incentive to be used because odds are like 34:1 something else will be getting hit instead of it

- Fire Golem with higher level Holy Fire aura, even being stacked higher by having extra fire golems to reward end-game Summoner, would mean at least this golem could be used for its damage dealt rather than purely tanking, since Clay is superior in that regard, considering all the immunes or fire resist enemies it doesn't seem overpowered to me

- Skeletal Archer should have a longer sight range to move around less and keep up damage per second

[Game]

My thinking here is that Necromancer can be lowered and heightened in different ways to give a better experience, I see it's strong already but my concern now is the mechanics of being a Summoner

I feel these would make improvements as overall mechanics, perhaps through new items or just directly included:

- Clash of tank mechanics: Revives can be unkillable, melee Skeletons are unlimited, Golems are unlimited and unkillable except by Bosses or a pack of inferno cows. I think currently Summoner has a lot of tanks and not enough damage per second done by the summons, furthermore I think auras are a good way to help that.

- Iron Golem with Thorns aura, since many summons have a high %DR it would not be as overpowered as it appears at first glance, this would give the Iron Golem some incentive to be used because odds are like 34:1 something else will be getting hit instead of it

- Fire Golem with higher level Holy Fire aura, even being stacked higher by having extra fire golems to reward end-game Summoner, would mean at least this golem could be used for its damage dealt, considering all the immunes or fire resist enemies it doesn't seem overpowered to me

- Skeletal Archer should have a longer sight range to move around less and keep up damage per second

Revives are tanky, sure, but they are the highest damage summon there is. They are designed to be DPS just as well as tanky.

Iron Golem isnt really meant to be used for his thorns... his secondary bonus is he takes the stats of any item. You can give him 100% Crushing Blow, or an aura, or whatever you want to do with him. Not to mention he can pretty much be physical immune.

Fire Golem already hits the skill cap level on Holy Fire even on just a moderately geared summoners now, cannot go any higher! His damage is already much higher than other Golems by default, I really have no plans to change Golems anymore right now.

Unfortunately I have no way to increase Archer range.

I know you have a vision in mind for Summoners, but I don't think we're going to be able to reach an agreement. We have two different ideas of what they should be. Considering how many summons a Necromancer can have I simply cannot make their summons high DPS machines without potential abuse, there is no middle ground here honestly. Summoners are not meant to play the role of insanely high summoned monster damage, and they never will, that isn't how I wanted them designed. They can zerg most bosses down or tank for days, while providing great utility to a party. They do put out pretty decent damage though, especially on single target. I've changed summon necromancers more than I have any other class on Annihilus with constant updates, to get them where I want them, I am very happy with how they are right now.

[Addah]

Game

Clay, Blood and Fire golems have their specialty uses but Iron golem has a contradictory/useless mechanic of high damage reduction and damage returned.

Sure it can be high damage if you invest crafted items but the damage reduction and return is almost irrelevant, the odds are it will not be attacked and you cannot control its position for better aggro because it requires an item.

If Iron golem gained an aura, (I believe Thorns is the most fitting, scaling up with each hard point or fixed at level 1) from either a sacrificed item, item on the Necromancer, or inherently on the skill, it would mean end game Summoner needs 1 golem of each type, which is an appealing idea.

- Clay golem can be the main Tank for Boss fights with slow/Crushing Blow
- Blood golem is a support to your Summons/Party with health/regeneration, its life connection to the Summoner is naturally a cool mechanic
- Iron golem "should" serve as a support with Thorns aura, and act as a specialty Tank against Physical damage, but since it has poor mobility its Tanking ability is extremely limited
- Fire golem serves as the primary DPS golem, and as a specialty Tank against Fire bosses

In conclusion:
Iron golem seems like the final step in completing Necromancer Summons

There is no value in Iron golem now because it has limited Tanking applications and has roughly 1:34 chances of being attacked physically for its %DR and returned damage to have any sort of usage

I strongly feel like it deserves Thorns aura in order to be valued, currently it doesn't work as a Tank nearly as well as Clay golem, for this reason it should act more as a support.

[acyroma]

Iron golem can already get thorns aura with a sacrificed item.

[Game]

Game

Clay, Blood and Fire golems have their specialty uses but Iron golem has a contradictory/useless mechanic of high damage reduction and damage returned.

Sure it can be high damage if you invest crafted items but the damage reduction and return is almost irrelevant, the odds are it will not be attacked and you cannot control its position for better aggro because it requires an item.

If Iron golem gained an aura, (I believe Thorns is the most fitting, scaling up with each hard point or fixed at level 1) from either a sacrificed item, item on the Necromancer, or inherently on the skill, it would mean end game Summoner needs 1 golem of each type, which is an appealing idea.

- Clay golem can be the main Tank for Boss fights with slow/Crushing Blow
- Blood golem is a support to your Summons/Party with health/regeneration, its life connection to the Summoner is naturally a cool mechanic
- Iron golem "should" serve as a support with Thorns aura, and act as a specialty Tank against Physical damage, but since it has poor mobility its Tanking ability is extremely limited
- Fire golem serves as the primary DPS golem, and as a specialty Tank against Fire bosses

In conclusion:
Iron golem seems like the final step in completing Necromancer Summons

There is no value in Iron golem now because it has limited Tanking applications and has roughly 1:34 chances of being attacked physically for its %DR and returned damage to have any sort of usage

I strongly feel like it deserves Thorns aura in order to be valued, currently it doesn't work as a Tank nearly as well as Clay golem, for this reason it should act more as a support.

I'll have to correct you here! Iron Golem has higher threat, and is much more likely to be attacked. But you're right, it is redundant to have Thorns and DR%, I almost removed Thorns as it is useless but I left it on as homage.

[Addah]

I'll have to correct you here! Iron Golem has higher threat, and is much more likely to be attacked. But you're right, it is redundant to have Thorns and DR%, I almost removed Thorns as it is useless but I left it on as homage.


I'm not sure how threat works on Diablo 2, and I can't find anything useful about it online

Does the Iron golem still need to attack an enemy first?

Does it work on Cows for example or only Bosses?

How effective will Iron golem force an enemy to attack it in the middle of a Summoned army?

What do you think about the idea of adding even a level 1 Thorns aura to Iron golem? What adjustments could be made to the golem to justify adding the aura? (like reducing some DR)

Do you think Thorns aura would be overpowered on it?


Iron golem can already get thorns aura with a sacrificed item.

That's good to know, do you have any idea what the cheapest items with auras are or where I can find out?

[acyroma]

For thorns, your cheapest option is Edge runeword. Level 15 thorns on it, and all you need is a 3os bow + tir tal amn.

You can find all the info you need on the wiki for uniques and runewords we have edited, and any runewords that arent on the wiki are as they are in regular d2, and you can find all that info here: http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/runewords.shtml

[Addah]

acyroma Game


Yes that's pretty cheap, but it would only be viable for the sake of inferno cows or a full game clear of content to compensate those runes, not to mention deaths.


I think Iron golem is essentially useless in its current state because there's better golems for tanking situations, although I still don't understand how aggro works on diablo 2.

It's not overpowered to add this aura in some capacity to summoner, I hope you don't just ask why but also why not.

With all the damage reduction on summons this aura will not be abusable.

[Game]

acyroma Game


Yes that's pretty cheap, but it would only be viable for the sake of inferno cows or a full game clear of content to compensate those runes, not to mention deaths.


I think Iron golem is essentially useless in its current state because there's better golems for tanking situations, although I still don't understand how aggro works on diablo 2.

It's not overpowered to add this aura in some capacity to summoner, I hope you don't just ask why but also why not.

With all the damage reduction on summons this aura will not be abusable.

Iron Golem is the best tank... how is there better golems for tanking? lol :/. Monsters all have a threat number, monsters with higher threat are likely to be the target of nearby enemies attacks. I do believe I have Iron Golems the highest, not to mention it has much higher physical resist than any other golem, and it can bring just about any aura you want to bring with it, or put high crushing blow on him, or whatever you want to do with him. If your Iron Golem dies you must have let him get beat on for days.

[Addah]

Game

Because Clay golem is more mobile, you can move it right in front of a boss.
Fire golem is better against massive fire damage bosses, because with health/regen/life steal the physical damage is of little concern

I'm not sure how well Iron golem attracts nearby enemies, or how taunt/aggro mechanics work on diablo 2

Unless it's a very high % that a boss will change targets to hit the Iron golem it won't be worth using

You also seem to have agreed the Thorns damage is almost useless, and I think you will agree it can't be abused. For this reason and all the others I said I strongly urge you to try adding Thorns aura.

Or alternatively make it so Iron golem doesn't consume the item it's created from, or the golem doesn't disappear when you die, so we can use good items on it without wasting them.

[Game]

Game

Because Clay golem is more mobile, you can move it right in front of a boss.
Fire golem is better against massive fire damage bosses, because with health/regen/life steal the physical damage is of little concern

I'm not sure how well Iron golem attracts nearby enemies, or how taunt/aggro mechanics work on diablo 2

Unless it's a very high % that a boss will change targets to hit the Iron golem it won't be worth using

You also seem to have agreed the Thorns damage is almost useless, and I think you will agree it can't be abused. For this reason and all the others I said I strongly urge you to try adding Thorns aura.

Or alternatively make it so Iron golem doesn't consume the item it's created from, or the golem doesn't disappear when you die, so we can use good items on it without wasting them.

Sorry but you're just going off theory, I have tested in game and Iron Golem is the best tank, it takes WAY more damage than any other Golem. Also, if I put Thorns on it, it will not be able to get auras from items used to make it. I am not going to do it, sorry man!

[Addah]

What I'm saying is the superiority of its ability to take damage would be irrelevant without being attacked, which you can control much more with Clay/Fire.

I think swapping a little portion of DR% and adding Thorns aura for support would be the best option, unless the Iron golem had 100% chance to make a nearby enemy attack it.

The item sacrifice maybe could be used for things like attack speed/life leech and stuff, but the aura could always be Thorns perhaps?