Necromancer v2

Hello this is more of a discussion rather than a suggestion about Necros, particularly Summoners.

What I want to discuss is the balance between higher hits and multiple hits, which has come into question since the recent 4.1.1 update when Necro Summoner Skeleton/Archers hit 2x harder but have max 6 summons instead of 20-25 each.

For those of you who don't know the updates:

- Skeleton/Archer limited to 6 each down from about 20-25
- Skeleton/Archer Damages are doubled
- Revive is limited to 1 down from 1 per skill level but has 3min+ duration with some more damage


My points are:
1) With 1/4 the amount of skeleton/archers they die much faster since enemies focus one at a time
2) The double damage does not compensate for 1/4 total amount of swing/hits per second, especially considering bosses dodge about 50%
3) Revive AI is so stupid that having only 1 is (next to) useless

The current changes hurt end-game Necromancers a lot.


To the other players on Necro's, what do you think?

roll druid win gaeeeeeeem

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Originally Posted by nedamettin

roll druid win gaeeeeeeem

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Seriously lol ,

roll assa win gaeeeeeeeeeeeeem

you guys disn't think making a Boner with just 1 points into skel and mastery with golem and shit ? Takes only 4 pts and u can summun skelletons anywhere now , im sure there's a way , and Magic horadrims everyone has thay nobody use it.

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Originally Posted by nedamettin

roll assa win gaeeeeeeeeeeeeem

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I don't know much Sins that can solu cruci without juvies under 16:00 :P Sin ain't Op juste sayin :P every druid can solo cruci tho as long u have prime and Fm

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Originally Posted by Scorchz

you guys disn't think making a Boner with just 1 points into skel and mastery with golem and shit ? Takes only 4 pts and u can summun skelletons anywhere now , im sure there's a way , and Magic horadrims everyone has thay nobody use it.

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Except those skeletons die 1 hit from zombies in blood moor, go test it yourself.

I don't think Poison or Bone was changed much from before 4.0.

Summoner was the major update in 4.1 and 4.1.1, and 4.1 Necro was pretty nice, now in 4.1.1 they are broken and nerfed and can't do end-game content again.

i was thinking about bone nec but 1 pt skills aint gonna happen bro. also so many shit in game is magic immune i think golem+el druin+full magic horads mb needed to pierce some of those. also no one knows the resistances of uldyssian or mappo etc so even that may not work and you again fully commit to a spec that may or may not work

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Originally Posted by Addah

Except those skeletons die 1 hit from zombies in blood moor, go test it yourself.

I don't think Poison or Bone was changed much from before 4.0.

Summoner was the major update in 4.1 and 4.1.1, and 4.1 Necro was pretty nice, now in 4.1.1 they are broken and nerfed and can't do end-game content again.

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believe me , Boner hurt , it's juste people are to influence about the meta game ( that and thay sucks ) but look i've been told Light trap sin was a faillure , but i clear anything i want :) i'm juste suggesting things not trying to be a dick haha :P i'd loved to build a summunet but yeah they kinda lack :(

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Originally Posted by nedamettin

i was thinking about bone nec but 1 pt skills aint gonna happen bro. also so many shit in game is magic immune i think golem+el druin+full magic horads mb needed to pierce some of those. also no one knows the resistances of uldyssian or mappo etc so even that may not work and you again fully commit to a spec that may or may not work

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that is true :)

I want to say that the skellies and revives could have been buffed without needing their quantity lowered and everything would have been great but I haven't tried it yet so we'll see. Revives were pretty damn tanky to begin with. If you chose the right ones they were pretty much invincible (inferno cows, plaguelands' undead, etc.). Giving them more life is probably not really going to be noticeable. That being said the only real change that we will feel is that there is now only one. The same probably goes for the skellies. It may not be intended, but in application I can see how this would feel like a massive nerf. I don't have a maxed out summoner though. Maybe it's tuned more for someone with +35363653 to skills:)

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Originally Posted by Scorchz

I don't know much Sins that can solu cruci without juvies under 16:00 :P Sin ain't Op juste sayin :P every druid can solo cruci tho as long u have prime and Fm

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Im not so sure about that now Kev. Now with the limitation on revive summons. This may hurt druids ALOT.

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Originally Posted by Lockzilla

Im not so sure about that now Kev. Now with the limitation on revive summons. This may hurt druids ALOT.

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Update. So yes. Limitation on how many revives can be cast just killed druids ability to do END Game content. NO more tanky summons to take the damage. 1 Isnt enough.

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Originally Posted by Lockzilla

Update. So yes. Limitation on how many revives can be cast just killed druids ability to do END Game content. NO more tanky summons to take the damage. 1 Isnt enough.

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Now imagine 1 Revive instead of 35+ which is what Summoner Necro lost.

When I made the Necro suggestion thread saying limit the amount of revives and increase duration this is not what I had in mind.

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Originally Posted by LordManhammer

I want to say that the skellies and revives could have been buffed without needing their quantity lowered and everything would have been great

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Absolutely agreed, although it might be better still to have 50-75% the regular summons instead of only 25% like now, not to mention 35+ less Revives.

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Originally Posted by Addah

Now imagine 1 Revive instead of 35+ which is what Summoner Necro lost.

When I made the Necro suggestion thread saying limit the amount of revives and increase duration this is not what I had in mind.




Absolutely agreed, although it might be better still to keep the double damage now and have 50-75% the minions instead of only 25% the minions like now, not to mention 30 less Revives.

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Oh Im sure. I wasn't blaming anyone for it. But something must be done about it. Elemental druids can no longer do end game content now because of the Revive Limit set to 1. Its a bigger slap in the face then the actual nerf was when he reduced the frames.

Druid

• Shapeshifting forms have received visual updates! Both forms no longer scale just from weapon speed, and will benefit from IAS from any item slot.


• Fury now attacks 20% faster.


• Bear Form attack speed is a little slower now due to the IAS change, so to make up for it both Maul and Shockwave have had their Damage / Synergies buffed. Bears are more about slower but higher damage, and Wolves are about speed.


• You may now cast Battle Orders / Battle Command / Shout in Shapeshifting form.


• Blaze will no longer remove you from Shapeshifting form.


• Tornado now hits every 4 frames, instead of every 2.


• Spirit Wolves and Dire Wolves now only benefit from base points put into Grizzly, capping their OW / DS at 20%.


• Summon damage gained from Grizzly lowered by 3%.

Funny how the strongest part of elemental druids was a Necromancer spell.

I guess Druid Summons were ever scaled up for end-game content, or were they?

@Game
5-12 Revives, instead of 1

12-18 skeletons each, instead of 6

Keep the damage bonuses

That would be awesome compared to now or to 4.1, even when skeleton warriors are fixed.

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Originally Posted by Addah

Funny how the strongest part of elemental druids was a Necromancer spell.

I guess Druid Summons were ever scaled up for end-game content, or were they?

@Game
5-12 Revives, instead of 1

12-18 skeletons each, instead of 6

Keep the damage bonuses

That would be awesome compared to now or to 4.1, even when skeleton warriors are fixed.

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Druid summons got nerf as far as damage though. their life has always been the same, LOW. Dire wolves 5200. spirit wolves 2800. bear 9000. SO any end game boss would 1 shot them. Vs have a necromancer revive skill to tank damage.

EDIT; No the strongest part of the elemental druid is Tornado.

If you mean the strongest survivability of the Druid then yes, Revives.

to be honest i myself told game to reduce revives to 1 but make them strong. THIS wasn't what i hoped for though. I have +4 golem which means +4 to revives now but their AI is so stupid they barely hit mobs. they also don't match the power of 45 revives i would cast before. at least they were tanking damage. almost the same with skellies. you are nowhere near any other character in killing speed PLUS you have to make summons. oh also did i mention that you literally take ONE SECOND STUN from each hit you take? good luck against any boss with a slight aoe or piercing attacks. or do not tp anywhere near a mob or ur gone.

these are probably my last days around here, since from day one i've been waiting and hoping for necro summoners to get better. i like necros and i dont like psn necro's "hit one go die" meta which is super boring. i offered testing myself but it looks like i am losing hope.

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Originally Posted by nedamettin

to be honest i myself told game to reduce revives to 1 but make them strong. THIS wasn't what i hoped for though. I have +4 golem which means +4 to revives now but their AI is so stupid they barely hit mobs. they also don't match the power of 45 revives i would cast before. at least they were tanking damage. almost the same with skellies. you are nowhere near any other character in killing speed PLUS you have to make summons. oh also did i mention that you literally take ONE SECOND STUN from each hit you take? good luck against any boss with a slight aoe or piercing attacks. or do not tp anywhere near a mob or ur gone.

these are probably my last days around here, since from day one i've been waiting and hoping for necro summoners to get better. i like necros and i dont like psn necro's "hit one go die" meta which is super boring. i offered testing myself but it looks like i am losing hope.

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Revives were always stupid but maybe it was hard to tell when you have 40 of them.

Yeah Summoner Necro content clearing is slower for sure now that we have 20% the amount of summons and 1/40 amount of revives.

Skeletal Lich has the worst Hit Recovery I could imagine, that's part of why I love Elder of Tristram so much for recovery and Horadrim Teleport stun.

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Originally Posted by Lockzilla

If you mean the strongest survivability of the Druid then yes, Revives.

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Well Necromancer skeletons have about 50% damage reduction, maybe druid summons should have 25-50% Dodge phys/magic chance?

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Originally Posted by nedamettin

to be honest i myself told game to reduce revives to 1 but make them strong. THIS wasn't what i hoped for though. I have +4 golem which means +4 to revives now but their AI is so stupid they barely hit mobs. they also don't match the power of 45 revives i would cast before. at least they were tanking damage. almost the same with skellies. you are nowhere near any other character in killing speed PLUS you have to make summons. oh also did i mention that you literally take ONE SECOND STUN from each hit you take? good luck against any boss with a slight aoe or piercing attacks. or do not tp anywhere near a mob or ur gone.

these are probably my last days around here, since from day one i've been waiting and hoping for necro summoners to get better. i like necros and i dont like psn necro's "hit one go die" meta which is super boring. i offered testing myself but it looks like i am losing hope.

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You're clearly unpleasable, I put out an update the same exact day I was able to get back on my computer, and I clearly said it was just to test the waters. I am fully dedicated to making the tree better but your awful attitude doesn't necessarily motivate me. If you want to quit then feel free to do so.

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Originally Posted by Game

I am fully dedicated to making the tree better

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Praise the Lord

I hope next you will test with around 15 max each skeleton warriors/archers because only 6 of each is giving me crippling depression

Revive limit at 5-10 might be perfect

The Golems are good enough

Maybe Druid summons deserve some Dodge since Necro summons have damage reduction

P.S.

I tried to give nedamettin some faith

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Originally Posted by Addah

Praise the Lord

I hope next you will test with around 15 max each skeleton warriors/archers because only 6 of each is giving me crippling depression

Revive limit at 5-10 might be perfect

The Golems are good enough

Maybe Druid summons deserve some Dodge

P.S.

I tried to give nedamettin some faith

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7-10 is better. Revives.

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Originally Posted by Addah

Praise the Lord

I hope next you will test with around 15 max each skeleton warriors/archers because only 6 of each is giving me crippling depression

Revive limit at 5-10 might be perfect

The Golems are good enough

Maybe Druid summons deserve some Dodge since Necro summons have damage reduction

P.S.

I tried to give nedamettin some faith

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I am just tired of negativity. Most of the suggestion were his, he talked like he was a summoner master so I tried his ideas. I will be reverting multiple changes today or tomorrow and try a different direction.

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Originally Posted by Game

I am just tired of negativity. Most of the suggestion were his, he talked like he was a summoner master so I tried his ideas. I will be reverting multiple changes today or tomorrow and try a different direction.

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I'm a Summoner in real life and I hope you keep the damage the way it is now but make it 12-18 of each skeleton with a limit of 10 revives.

I honestly think that would be perfect considering my original post explanation here.

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Originally Posted by Addah

I'm a Summoner in real life and I hope you keep the damage the way it is now but make it 12-18 of each skeleton with a limit of 10 revives.

I honestly think that would be perfect considering my original post explanation here.

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Good suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Game

I am just tired of negativity. Most of the suggestion were his, he talked like he was a summoner master so I tried his ideas. I will be reverting multiple changes today or tomorrow and try a different direction.

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that was the first "negative" post i've written and my suggestions haven't involved having a revive minion which does nothing compared to 40 weaker ones and having weaker summons overall. IF druids need tanking (which i actually dont think so) you should add things to THEIR summons maybe. problem IS NOT having a single revive for a NECROMANCER. we have 14 summons in total now which is a good amount. problem is you just can't make their damage worthwhile.

also if you don't like negativity, how about actually TESTING things before releasing them? nevermind the random crashes i've gotten so far you even managed to NOT fix the issue you tried to fix. i even offered to help for testing things which is an easy thing to do and i've done it before for an other modder. I AM SURE that other people would offer help aswell if you asked. and please let's not say "i have tested" because how can you miss skeletons dying in a single hit? it is impossible unless you tested them for about 10 seconds.

these are my last posts here, i'll probably sell my accounts for gold and keep them afk until things get better, IF they get better at all. before i go i should quote a part of your post though:

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Originally Posted by Game

• Skeletal Burst will now do proper damage, and hit much more reliably. I am still keeping an eye on this, it may still need more tuning but it felt pretty good in testing if you use physical damage items and a good weapon. This skill isn't meant to do HUGE damage, as your summons should be doing most of the work, but it can definitely kill now.

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good testing sir, good testing. i've been waiting for months. of course i am pissed now.

Thanks for playing with us when you did nedamettin.

Good luck on your next endeavor.

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Originally Posted by nedamettin

that was the first "negative" post i've written and my suggestions haven't involved having a revive minion which does nothing compared to 40 weaker ones and having weaker summons overall. IF druids need tanking (which i actually dont think so) you should add things to THEIR summons maybe. problem IS NOT having a single revive for a NECROMANCER. we have 14 summons in total now which is a good amount. problem is you just can't make their damage worthwhile.

also if you don't like negativity, how about actually TESTING things before releasing them? nevermind the random crashes i've gotten so far you even managed to NOT fix the issue you tried to fix. i even offered to help for testing things which is an easy thing to do and i've done it before for an other modder. I AM SURE that other people would offer help aswell if you asked. and please let's not say "i have tested" because how can you miss skeletons dying in a single hit? it is impossible unless you tested them for about 10 seconds.

these are my last posts here, i'll probably sell my accounts for gold and keep them afk until things get better, IF they get better at all. before i go i should quote a part of your post though:



good testing sir, good testing. i've been waiting for months. of course i am pissed now.

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Skeletal Burst did feel pretty good in testing. Also, skeletons only die in 1 hit if you have a really high skeleton mastery and raise skeleton level. It is quite easy to miss if my build didn't have as much + to skills when testing. I usually would never say this but I think I would be thrilled if you decided to "afk". You have nothing positive to offer, and I explained why it took me so long to get out 4.1.1 and I did everything in the patch notes in a single day. People like you single handedly make me not want to bother fixing anything. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Don't expect perfection in 1 try.

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Originally Posted by Game

Skeletal Burst did feel pretty good in testing. Also, skeletons only die in 1 hit if you have a really high skeleton mastery and raise skeleton level. It is quite easy to miss if my build didn't have as much + to skills when testing. I usually would never say this but I think I would be thrilled if you decided to "afk". You have nothing positive to offer, and I explained why it took me so long to get out 4.1.1 and I did everything in the patch notes in a single day. People like you single handedly make me not want to bother fixing anything. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Don't expect perfection in 1 try.

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for that one "try" i've been waiting for months and it still failed. what do you expect, clapping? you managed to make a broken build even worse, then threw the ball at me for some reason. i usually would never say this but i think i would be thrilled if you decided to "not afk" and worked a bit on the mod. nevermind the lots of suggestions i've made over bnet and forums, i directly helped this server by selling items for gold, which is money to your pocket to keep this server up or i dont know... spend? I DID contribute positively, probably more than most of the players.



i now regret the time i've spent here after these posts.

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Originally Posted by nedamettin

for that one "try" i've been waiting for months and it still failed. what do you expect, clapping? you managed to make a broken build even worse, then threw the ball at me for some reason. i usually would never say this but i think i would be thrilled if you decided to "not afk" and worked a bit on the mod. nevermind the lots of suggestions i've made over bnet and forums, i directly helped this server by selling items for gold, which is money to your pocket to keep this server up or i dont know... spend? I DID contribute positively, probably more than most of the players.



i now regret the time i've spent here after these posts.

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I said I would not be working on summoner necro until 4.1, I never said I was working on it months ago. Now that I have started, I am going to work on it any freetime I get until I hit the sweet spot. You discouraging me intentionally single handedly ruins any "good deeds" you did for the server. Do you realize just how much time I put into Annihilus? I would LOVE to be able to spend even more time fixing things and improving the server but as I have repeated over and over I am a one man developer team, I work full time and have a 19 month old son I love to spend as much time with as I can. It doesn't exactly leave me many hours to do developing and hardcore testing.

My "testing" phase is to get it to the public and take public yet CONSTRUCTIVE feedback via the forums, and it has worked wonders for me this far. You make it sound like this is my job and it is a requirement for me to work non stop on this. I do this because I enjoy it as a hobby, and trust me I put every minute I can into it as long as it doesn't take away from my family or other responsibilities. You should think about what you're saying to someone before you absolutely roast the hard work they've done.

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Originally Posted by Game

I said I would not be working on summoner necro until 4.1, I never said I was working on it months ago. Now that I have started, I am going to work on it any freetime I get until I hit the sweet spot. You discouraging me intentionally single handedly ruins any "good deeds" you did for the server. Do you realize just how much time I put into Annihilus? I would LOVE to be able to spend even more time fixing things and improving the server but as I have repeated over and over I am a one man developer team, I work full time and have a 19 month old son I love to spend as much time with as I can. It doesn't exactly leave me many hours to do developing and hardcore testing.

My "testing" phase is to get it to the public and take public yet CONSTRUCTIVE feedback via the forums, and it has worked wonders for me this far. You make it sound like this is my job and it is a requirement for me to work non stop on this. I do this because I enjoy it as a hobby, and trust me I put every minute I can into it as long as it doesn't take away from my family or other responsibilities. You should think about what you're saying to someone before you absolutely roast the hard work they've done.

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the solution to your problem is hiring testers that offers their free time as nedamettin did. you do not need to do things alone and be "one man developer team".

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Originally Posted by bgtomsk

the solution to your problem is hiring testers that offers their free time as nedamettin did. you do not need to do things alone and be "one man developer team".

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People recommend this but do not know what this entails of. Our patch size is MUCH bigger than 95% of other mods out there. It takes a lot of time to fully compile a patch and send it out, especially if I keep making small changes. It is much better / efficient for me to just have everyone test it on live.

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Originally Posted by Game

People recommend this but do not know what this entails of. Our patch size is MUCH bigger than 95% of other mods out there. It takes a lot of time to fully compile a patch and send it out, especially if I keep making small changes. It is much better / efficient for me to just have everyone test it on live.

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mb an online conference among habitues should be implemented before each patch? to refine your ideas. especially major ones, that will affect several classes (for example that revive concept).

I think this is a rare situation where something is drastically changed and impacts multiple classes.


As long as it's fixed relatively fast, if it's tested live, then it's not really a big deal.


One possible fix is to have Class Suggestion/Test forum section so people can give feedback about experience in each class/build.True there's character strategy/guides but that's not the same thing, I mean for future changes.


Or maybe select some people to research and give input on class changes, not necessarily test the patch.

I will have a new revision pushed to live servers sometime late tonight.