Making other classes end-gameables

Hi everyone, I'd like to use the pre-3.4 moment to suggest some possibilities that I believe to be able to make other characters more competitive in PVM.




When it comes to BOSSES, a huge number of crushing blows, with smite, for example, that hits without AR, or WW that hits very very very fast, will give those characters a great advantage in both surviving and nuking the boss hp in a good speed, no matter how many players are in the game (dmg-wise)

So here are the ideas for some characters:
Assassin's Dragon Talon: make it have an INSANE bonus to AR OR make it hit like Smite (i'd love the second option :D )
Druid's Fury could have something like that too.

Amazons Jab hitting 100% would be nice too, but amazons are way too powerful in other areas like mass murdering of packs, so I'm trying to focus on characters that we dont see so often being played.



About other changes:

In Eastern Sun, the latest releases, the assassin has a shadow master that can pretty much solo any normal monsters in the game, due to her high lvl skills, and you can have 2 of them.

So, I'd say change wolves and bear from 5-3-1 to 7-5-3, and make the asn have 2 shadow masters (according to skill points invested), also giving the shadow master some kind of sinergy, or a shadow mastery as in ES.


The skelly mages are so weak that they could be changed to some other summon, like skelly archers with a decent dmg, or even be removed and given to another character, it could be given to the paladin, change it to some priests or something, and have him boost them with the use of auras.

Also, i'd swap tornado and twister, making twister be the lvl 24 skill and give it the dmg of tornado, that would already help a bit, or make tornado have the effects of a ranged melee attack (1/16 cblow, some life steal, and maybe reduce its base dmg and use the weapon dmg too, it would be nice to see people balancing FCR while taking care of dmg).




Well, I also insist on merc full gear, making them weaker than now but able to have more options and builds, it has to be done wisely since it gives so many new build possibilities that it could quickly unbalance everything in the mod, especially when people gather in parties.

tornado shouldnt be swapped , it should just get extra missile per x lvls, twister is unused skill which should be replaced with something useful(what should be done to all unused and useless skills imo)


and about character redoing .. maybe just rip all skills and just build new skill trees?? making all chars have 1 skilltree that is full of same skills such as critikal strike, dodge , weapon masteries(including bow , staff etc) and maybe even elemental psn and magic mastery? natural resistance , iron skin , etc passive bonuses and 2 combat skills trees. just a thought

My 7 cents:

1) I'm down with AR bonuses in general.

2) Yeah I sort of mentioned that bit about having 2 shadow masters. My suggestion was that that should be another scroll like Valkyries, Golems, and Spirits.

3) Bowzons are great once you get Frostfire and the Cow Queen set (although keep in mind, Game gave hints that set will be nerfed), but any other Amazon build without pretty much the most optimum gear (and I do mean optimum) is nowhere near as great a killing machine in my opinion. Personally the only thing the lightning javelin or physical javelin or spear amazon needs is either a slight synergy boost for certain skills or have their main weapon(s) buffed a bit.

4) Regarding the cold elemental druid, I'm not exactly sure that many extra tornadoes should be added. It would be nice to see at least 2 to 4 of such, but more than that sounds pretty crazy. Right now, I just think the whole elemental tree needs buffing in terms of damage. I don't think life steal needs to be added to that build since you ought to have enough points to put at least 1 on murder of crows, though I am sympathetic about the other suggestions mentioned.

5) ...skeletons will always be a joke. That's just the way it is. Perhaps if we wanted to see them improved they ought to be treated more like ravens. I.e. their life is based on a few hits provided. Add to that that skeletons with cqc weapons can do some % of crushing blow, open wounds, or prevent monster heal (ravens do 2 of those if I'm not mistaken). Mages probably should be replaced with archers in truth to do much of the above. It's either that or the following complicated and possibly op result should be made. That would be something like this:

a) Poison mages have a chance to inject acid and/or have some kind of aura (pestilence?);
b) Fire mages can grant warmth and/or meditation or some other kind of aura (lower fire resistance?);
c) lightning mages have a chance to do static and/or have some kind of aura (lower lightning resistance?);
d) Cold mages have a holy freeze aura and can slow targets if not freeze them and/some kind of aura (perhaps holy freeze or lower cold resistances);

I'd probably also recommend the above have their lives dependent on a few hits as well. In general, perhaps skeletons should be treated sort of like ravens. They're annoyances but add some decent traits to the game.

6) As for norak suggestions regarding 1 skill tree... that would really unsettle things you know that? Every item which say gives +2 to curses would all have to be re-worked to give either + X to a character class skills or + X to some master skill tree or so that's the impression I get from what I read. That would be a step in the wrong direction.

A) A bow and staff mastery? Did I read that correctly as well? I get the bow part if you would like to do a physical bowzon build, but the staff part? Why? For who?

B) I don't think elemental poison mastery is needed. The poison necromancer is pretty powerful as is, and even if they weren't, a simple tweak to their gear or skills would make fix that. A magic mastery skill, however, would be interesting for a hammerdin, bone necromancer, or even a berserk barbarian, but again, it might not be necessary. You could just add scrolls with extra magic damage which I have not seen (I know there are jewels that do that, but they are very rare).

7) Not discussed in the above, but if we're going to talk about re-balancing then we should include the sorceresses as well. In particular, I would like to see that physical damage conversion modifiers removed especially if what I mentioned in my questions/concerns about that are true (i.e. essentially you can't rely on -enemy fire or lightning resistance modifiers since now you're supposed to be doing physical damage). Even if somehow, the above wasn't a problem which is not my experience, I don't even understand the thought process/motivation of wanting to have the Sorceress even do physical damage in the first place. If you want a physical sorceress that also does magic damage, then make an enchantress (something I may try out eventually). There's already a weapon for her to try that out. The only concern I would have for that kind of build is probably AR (haven't test it so I have to get back to you all on that). The funny/ironic thing is that that isn't done for the cold sorceress (i.e. there is no item that converts ice to physical damage), and people now prefer that build over the other two which should tell you what people think of that modifier (at the very least, it should be something optional by having a scroll that does that).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vaudeville

My 7 cents:

1) I'm down with AR bonuses in general.

2) Yeah I sort of mentioned that bit about having 2 shadow masters. My suggestion was that that should be another scroll like Valkyries, Golems, and Spirits.

3) Bowzons are great once you get Frostfire and the Cow Queen set (although keep in mind, Game gave hints that set will be nerfed), but any other Amazon build without pretty much the most optimum gear (and I do mean optimum) is nowhere near as great a killing machine in my opinion. Personally the only thing the lightning javelin or physical javelin or spear amazon needs is either a slight synergy boost for certain skills or have their main weapon(s) buffed a bit.

4) Regarding the cold elemental druid, I'm not exactly sure that many extra tornadoes should be added. It would be nice to see at least 2 to 4 of such, but more than that sounds pretty crazy. Right now, I just think the whole elemental tree needs buffing in terms of damage. I don't think life steal needs to be added to that build since you ought to have enough points to put at least 1 on murder of crows, though I am sympathetic about the other suggestions mentioned.

5) ...skeletons will always be a joke. That's just the way it is. Perhaps if we wanted to see them improved they ought to be treated more like ravens. I.e. their life is based on a few hits provided. Add to that that skeletons with cqc weapons can do some % of crushing blow, open wounds, or prevent monster heal (ravens do 2 of those if I'm not mistaken). Mages probably should be replaced with archers in truth to do much of the above. It's either that or the following complicated and possibly op result should be made. That would be something like this:

a) Poison mages have a chance to inject acid and/or have some kind of aura (pestilence?);
b) Fire mages can grant warmth and/or meditation or some other kind of aura (lower fire resistance?);
c) lightning mages have a chance to do static and/or have some kind of aura (lower lightning resistance?);
d) Cold mages have a holy freeze aura and can slow targets if not freeze them and/some kind of aura (perhaps holy freeze or lower cold resistances);

I'd probably also recommend the above have their lives dependent on a few hits as well. In general, perhaps skeletons should be treated sort of like ravens. They're annoyances but add some decent traits to the game.

6) As for norak suggestions regarding 1 skill tree... that would really unsettle things you know that? Every item which say gives +2 to curses would all have to be re-worked to give either + X to a character class skills or + X to some master skill tree or so that's the impression I get from what I read. That would be a step in the wrong direction.

A) A bow and staff mastery? Did I read that correctly as well? I get the bow part if you would like to do a physical bowzon build, but the staff part? Why? For who?

B) I don't think elemental poison mastery is needed. The poison necromancer is pretty powerful as is, and even if they weren't, a simple tweak to their gear or skills would make fix that. A magic mastery skill, however, would be interesting for a hammerdin, bone necromancer, or even a berserk barbarian, but again, it might not be necessary. You could just add scrolls with extra magic damage which I have not seen (I know there are jewels that do that, but they are very rare).

7) Not discussed in the above, but if we're going to talk about re-balancing then we should include the sorceresses as well. In particular, I would like to see that physical damage conversion modifiers removed especially if what I mentioned in my questions/concerns about that are true (i.e. essentially you can't rely on -enemy fire or lightning resistance modifiers since now you're supposed to be doing physical damage). Even if somehow, the above wasn't a problem which is not my experience, I don't even understand the thought process/motivation of wanting to have the Sorceress even do physical damage in the first place. If you want a physical sorceress that also does magic damage, then make an enchantress (something I may try out eventually). There's already a weapon for her to try that out. The only concern I would have for that kind of build is probably AR (haven't test it so I have to get back to you all on that). The funny/ironic thing is that that isn't done for the cold sorceress (i.e. there is no item that converts ice to physical damage), and people now prefer that build over the other two which should tell you what people think of that modifier (at the very least, it should be something optional by having a scroll that does that).

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Nice thoughts! About skellies, there's a good solution concerning CB, if an aura gets CB%, summons will be a lot more useful too, if the aura gives like 1% cb per level (could be added to might), it would make a difference already. About the mages, their dmg is just too crappy, and i think giving them pally auras would be a bit too much, i'd rather see skelly bowers using some basic bow skills, but they could also be revamped to something new, like wraiths, that can gather all at the same spot.

Revives could have a time bonus sinergy, maybe from the skill where the mages are now, that would make the summon necro a more specific build, since now it's pretty easy to just put 1 point into revives and let the +skills do the rest.

The common skill tree for all chars would probably remove one of the most exciting things of d2, which is the fact that each character has its own way to be played, i do think, too, that it would go the wrong way.

About the sorceress, i like the idea of phys dmg only if it can be a true phys dmg, but that would be very very very dangerous to the game balance, because if you can CTC nova, for example, on strike, you'd cast it like 100 times in a row heheh... but having her CTC amplify without relying on merc would be cool. Still, the way it is now (I never had a phys nova sorc), i'd use that orb as a switch to kill lightning imunes. But I have no experience concerning that, so I have no clue at all.

Overall I pretty much agree with what you said, but since we're getting more into overall balancing, I'd like to add that balancing all those stuff without the use of scrolls would be pretty nice for people to actually START the ladder with different characters, instead of having a ton of amas, sorcs and shield barbs (on hc it'll be like95% shield barbs, including me), for then making a smiter and ONLY then making the characters of our desires.

Being able to actually grow with any character is the nicest pvm aspect IMO, I'd even rather have that than the end game fully balanced, because in the end of the game, you'll pretty much just get the gear and put on the character, then go to the next end game stage, and I even like the idea of making one character especifically to kill a certain boss, thats how things go in hc at least.

The thing is, most of the time, we'll be playing a specific character for MFing, and it would be amazing to be able to choose from any of the 7 to do so, but the way things are now, it's already a lot more versatile than vanilla (thats why I play here).

@Apocalypse yeah pretty much on all points to your reply.

I would add that there is the warmonger shield as well, but I take it you probably know about that. I'm actually now leaning more toward bone archers as well. I also would like to see less over all skeletons or even revives in favor of making them overall stronger (i.e. quality over quantity). I'm not looking forward to someone having like 40 revives and X amount of skeletons.

As for the sorceresses, I still don't get the idea. At the very least, why not have physical damage as something additional like how the Paladin Abyss Prime adds not converts physical damage to hammers (and no I'm not arguing that such should be a +100% physical just like hammers which would be absurd). I would be fine with that.

I like your idea of giving mage skellies auras and/or skills to cast, Vaud. That's a badass idea. Though I can already see Game typing "Cool idea but totally impossible or extremely complicated". Haha... well maybe it wouldn't be so bad to code.

Bow Mastery skill sounds great. We just need a solid physical bow that can actually carry a bowzon through end game content. The bow that drops from Lvl 5 Crucible doesn't seem worthy, though I haven't tried it so I don't really know.

Extra Shadow Master scrolls sound fun.

Magic Mastery in the paladin skill tree would be fucking awesome (or Magic Mastery skill added to Khalim's Hope or another new weapon designed for hammers). We need hammerdins to be viable for end game content. Problem is that it will possibly make Searing Light too OP.

I can definitely see him say that too Beard regarding the skeleton mages. It probably wouldn't be worth it anyway since the mages would still do so little damage anyway. It would be simpler to just replace them with archers and treat them like what I mentioned before like ravens. That's good enough.

Also what lvl 5 Crucible bow are you talking about? Was that a thing before back then?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vaudeville

@Apocalypse yeah pretty much on all points to your reply.

I would add that there is the warmonger shield as well, but I take it you probably know about that. I'm actually now leaning more toward bone archers as well. I also would like to see less over all skeletons or even revives in favor of making them overall stronger (i.e. quality over quantity). I'm not looking forward to someone having like 40 revives and X amount of skeletons.

As for the sorceresses, I still don't get the idea. At the very least, why not have physical damage as something additional like how the Paladin Abyss Prime adds not converts physical damage to hammers (and no I'm not arguing that such should be a +100% physical just like hammers which would be absurd). I would be fine with that.

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I didn't see the 3.2 items, now I checked it out, pretty cool, and yeah, that would do the work!

About the sorc, I agree with you, making it hybrid is always cooler. Anything that gives the sorc more flexibility when killing is amazing already, even though 3.2 changed the way -res work, sorcs deserve, imo, some more flexibility, since everyone can use teleport (which used to be her way to stand out from the rest), or at least give them more ways to stay alive longer in certain situations when soloing.

But let's see what game is preparing for us, I doubt it would be hard to give the skelly mages some auras, the tricky part would be to actually give them NEW auras to keep paladins and RWs exclusivity. But seeing all the new auras added, and some other item mods that they made, I doubt it would be hard for them at all.

Maybe the Sorceress ought to have an additional Magic (as in literally "Magic") damage instead of having some kind of physical conversion modifier (depending on the item of course). Wouldn't that make more sense? Again we are talking about a sorceress and again it doesn't have to be 100% like the paladin abyss sphere.

Perhaps on consideration that ought to be in the Sorceress Abyss Sphere?

@vaudeville totally agree with that point.